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Joke.

did these guys build the scottish parliment too? any bloody wonder its £1.10 a ticket and it closes so early

[quote][bold]hightower[/bold] wrote: did these guys build the scottish parliment too? any bloody wonder its £1.10 a ticket and it closes so early[/quote] Closes early. I've never used the Subway, ever. I never realised it closed early. Doesn;'t the London Underground run 24 hrs a day? What a joke! How is Glasgow going to cope with the Commonwealth games? I'm lucky to get a seat on the bus into town as it is.

Oh well, no great surprise here then. For the past year and a half Cllr Watson has been hiding from this one – insisting, Canute like, that despite the horrendous delays: [italic]“The estimated costs are still within the project budget limits which stand at £12.3m.”[/italic] [bold]20/08/07[/bold] [italic]“The estimated cost has now risen from £9.7million to £10.5million. However this remains well within the budget limits which stand at £12.3million.”[/italic] [bold]16/03/07[/bold] But the Evening Times is either trying to massage the info or really doesn’t understand that Spencer’s original contract value of £9.7m has already been increased to £10.5m. They are looking for an extra £6.3m (nothing to do with the fees and other costs). This is a 65% increase (if we assume the previous increase is included in the claim) and the job is not even finished yet. So we have a project – Which was scheduled to start in October 2005. Was to take 16 months to complete. Was to cost a total of £12.3m. Is now (hoped) to be finished in September 2008 (35 months). Is to cost (at least) £18.6m (remember there will also be new fees to be paid for the dispute). Forget about calls for resignation, no doubt an MBE is already on the cards. [bold]www.subway2020.com[/bold]

Yet again the cost of construction of a public building appears to be out of control, or miscalculated. Is it any wonder the public have little faith or belief in what we are told by officials. Surely there needs to be an independent review of this fiasco, if the public are to be convinced that ineptitude, lies, profiteering and mismanagement are not to blame.

[quote]...due to ground conditions, which were discovered when work began.[/quote] Isn't that the same excuse used by Glasgow City Council for recent huge increase in schools' building and the outrageously over-budget Riverside Museum? [italic]You would think highly-paid consultants could at least come up with a new tale to spin![/italic]

yet again SPT shoots itself in the foot, what a bloody farce. Let me type this in capitals for those numpties at SPT. GET A HOLD OF THOSE UNIONISED STAFF EMPLOYED AND USE THAT MONEY TO OPEN THE SUBWAY SYSTEM 24/7.Oh that is too simple to understand........

What they getting for for the 18 million sobs?

so this project, that actually proceeded, was one of SPT's flagship projects and they made a bit of a **** of it. no wonder the airport link was removed from their hands by Transport Scotland. SPT is not fit for purpose - a quango ready to be terminated!

Hands up who is actually surprised by this!!

Not only is this outrageously expensive, it is largely unnecessary. Most services through Partick run several times an hour - it is not a place where people spend significant amounts of time. As far as i know, there are few if any additional facilities for passengers - some shops maybe, but Partick already has an abundance of vacant shops. All that is needed is working escalators, access for people with mobility difficulties and some shelter from the rain. I hardly think that needs to cost £18m. Cleaning up the old station, adding a lift and making sure the roof was watertight would have been enough. Eileenanne

SPT is a joke organisation. I tried to get a subway train yesterday morning at 10am but found my station closed. The organisation is stuck in the 1950s.

[quote]Doesn't the London Underground run 24 hrs a day?[/quote] No.

The subway system is sooo out dated, and if it costs 18 million for 1 station to be upgraded then what will it cost to upgrade the whole system! No point may aswell just close the whole thing down! Not to mention the greeting faced staff that are always on strike for the least wee thing!

Partick station is becoming almost as big a joke as the Edinburgh trams where the costs have increased for the second time in a matter of weeks

SPT the laughing stock of the UK, and beyond! Heads should roll for this blunder, which is seeing (if I'm not mistaken) yet more tax - payers money being ploughed into a project which was flawed from the offset. The contractors on the ground were fired and re-employed. The design specifications haven't even included a proper sheltered waiting area on the low level train platforms. The replacement of the escalators within the Subway section of the station has seen little improvement, for the timescale taken to replace them. The only change is the lighting down the insides of the escalators, and the green specs of light seen through the slats on the moving stairs of the escalators - hardly the sophistication, or modern look people may have been expecting for the disruption caused during their replacement. The great need for elevators to be fitted is clear within all SPT Stations accross the city, and indeed rail network. The way in which SPT and Scotrail have failed to come to agreements over the demolishing and refurbishment of Partick Station earlier than this is disgraceful. The timely delays have no doubt pushed the final cost of this project up futher. Again the need for something which is beyond the capabilities and skills of the contractors, builders, and workmen on the ground is clear to see. Perhaps designs such as this should be made far more simple by the architects, as clearly the reality of projects such as this coming to fruition is beyond some of the contractors. If personality spats and disagreements could be ironed out at a far earlier stage, I'm sure the other technical and structural difficulties could be fixed far sooner. But one thing is clear - the disruption which looks set to continue - along with the spiralling costs should not be accepted, and the management in charge of this project should see heads rolling. Will any of Glasgows new builds, public or other wise ever finish on time and in budget ? I have my doubts!

Let’s hope they at least have the good grace to cancel any opening ceremony. Whilst it would be difficult to plan one in any event (nobody can say when the job will be finished) it would at least show some responsibility on costs, but I doubt if it will happen. I think that would be the final slap in the face for the public – overspend by £6.3m then celebrate it! Coming next – the failed Nightrider bus service. Another quarter of a million given away to run a ghost bus. [bold]www.subway2020.com[/bold]

Bill, Your right again, and these days - your not often wrong! It did not surprise me to hear of the demise of the Nightrider bus service, along the route of the Glasgows subway. Although I doubt if the high cost of the subsidy of fifteen pounds per person is to be believed as the main reason for its withdrawal. [italic]"The possibilities of extending Glasgows subway services opening hours, particuarly on a Sunday"[/italic] were mentioned by SPT Chairman, Councillor Alistair Watson, (Reference BBC) and not before time. The current opening hours are abysmal and must be improved. The eight-million-pound boost, of Glasgows subway to make it safer, brighter and easier to use is pathetic compared to the cost of upgrading the existing system, quoted at costing £270million. This meer eight-million is just the tip of the iceberg. Upgrading ticket machines, and refurbishment of subway stations is simply not good enough. Opening hours must be extended too. With talk in 2007 of SPT getting seven more stations and a new fleet of trains under an ambitious £2.6billion plan, as well as the cost of the extension into the East End of the city being £2.3bn SPT has alot more work to contend with if Glasgows transport infrastructure is up. to the mark in 2014. Ultimately, SPT's failings seem to come to the fore far more than any success stories or spin we read in the E.T. Wonder what Mr Watson has to say in response to these comments ? Cue Councillor Alistair Watson ?

Bringing this to basics,if I for example hire a firm to put on a roof,build a wall,extention etc,I sit down talk it over and then sign a legally binding contract.The firm charges for example £10k thats the deal. What do I say if they come back looking for more 3 months on after they have commenced.Thats correct too rude to print. On a larger scale is this fiasco.Does the partnership swallow the story of ground conditions a factor which should have been looked at from day 1 and costed.Once again public money down the hole and no one carrying the can

I am going to be cynical here. I think the sole purpose of the SPT staff is to put their mandate into the hands of Transport Scotland. Over the last couple of years the sPT has been incompetent to the extreme. And the SPT havent had any visionary ideas that helped the west of scotland. The SPT are full of Scottish Labour malcontents who want to destroy the SPT.

I can’t argue with your approach there dan, except the danger arises when the client says to the contractor just build it. They open up the ground and find problems with the sub strata – it’s not their fault so they should get paid for any work they have to do. The way round this is to have a client with the savvy to carry out detailed surveys [bold]first[/bold] . I know it sounds basic common sense but that does not appear to happen with the SPT. On the Rail Link project they decided that they wanted a concrete viaduct to enter the airport. They acknowledged that this would [bold]cost more[/bold] but they thought it would look better. To cross the M8 they decided on a sexy bridge design not too far removed from the Clyde Arc. They acknowledged it would [bold]cost more[/bold] but they decided it would create less traffic problems during construction. They then picked a route which goes straight through the airport fuel depot – probably the [bold]most expensive[/bold] building at the Airport to move. Having decided all that they [bold]THEN[/bold] carried out detailed ground investigations to find that they will be sinking piles (to support their more expensive structures) almost to the centre of the earth – that’s when Transport Scotland stepped in. Do you see the pattern? They are not content with carrying out their job they have to wander off into other fields. At Partick they tried to do Network Rail’s job – they got the bums rush so to speak. They then couldn’t even assemble the site – leaving out a section of land which was owned by Morrisons. Then they took the decision to keep the Subway open for the full contract period instead of running a shuttle just along to Kelvinhall Station at crucial points in the programme. It’s all come back to haunt them; we are left paying for their incompetence and then they ask why they are not getting backing for CrossRail, Subway extension, FastLink, Maglev, etc, etc???? Hopefully we are seeing the death of this quango. The running of the Subway can be done without their “[italic]help[/italic] ”. Their transport planning brief/responsibility can be carried out by a joint board between all the appropriate local authorities. Their (now limited) involvement with railways can be carried out by Network Rail and their bus subsidy schemes could be run direct by the local authorities and [bold]PLEASE, PLEASE[/bold] , get all their responsibilities for capital projects back to Transport Scotland. Maybe that’s what Meep is talking about. [bold]www.subway2020.com[/bold]

[quote][bold]Meep[/bold] wrote: I am going to be cynical here. I think the sole purpose of the SPT staff is to put their mandate into the hands of Transport Scotland. Over the last couple of years the sPT has been incompetent to the extreme. And the SPT havent had any visionary ideas that helped the west of scotland. The SPT are full of Scottish Labour malcontents who want to destroy the SPT.[/quote] Meep you talk alot of sense, but you've really hit the nail on the head here! The question which now has to be asked is what are the Scottish Parliament, Glasgow City Council and other bodies going to do about this SPT balls up ? No, sacking someone won't make the Partick Interchange - Partick Station Project run any faster, or be completed any quicker. But, in saying that someone must be held accountable for this complete mess we're being left with. The huge rise in costs may be in part un-avoidable, as Bill Forbes outlines in some of the reasons which can arise. However, the management who run SPT are so lacking in any real imagination, vision and creativity and so devoid of ideas on ( to coin a phrase) " Joining Up Journeys" that they must all, or in part be sacked and re-employed. It is clear SPT employees and in particular Station staff at Partick are in desperate need of a broader mindset and rationale. They have to see that the way the Subway is being run is detrimental in the long term. They also have to see that criticism from the public is not of them personally, but the management structure, and way the subway is being run, opening hours, and pricing structures (etc.) Perhaps with less politics within SPT and more people skills we'd see real progress at a human level, building bridges on a P.R. level, and regaining trust and respect from those who are sickened by SPT's incompetance.

My point basically is that nobody but nobody asks for work to be done and says to a contracter,Just carry on Ill write a blank cheque and you fill in the figures.A late friend of mine a builder and self confessed cowboy had a couple of council jobs which referred to as "His dripping roasts" He would have admired this fiasco.

Summed Up In one word for you : INCOMPETANCE!

With such a lot of out of work building experts above its no wonder we have problems with building projects.[bold]bold[/bold]

Har har har! Sarcasm gets you know where, or should that be no where. Sure, you'll agree that where the public purse is opened, and a project such as this is so far behind schedule, over budget, and not without its problems, there must be some kind of accountability accepted, and answers sought! Otherwise, as dan, West end says:- [quote]nobody asks for work to be done and says to a contracter,Just carry on I'll write a blank cheque and you fill in the figures[/quote] Anybody who thinks SPT have been fully competant, and proffessional in their management of this entire project is misguided, and must be part of the deluded malcontented labourites.

PP. WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR COMMENTS. Have you written to the Minister responsible to get the real facts! The SPT are a Gov Quango.[bold]bold[/bold]

Another SPT employee, or insider are we ? People can check out the facts for themselves, there are enough reasons to criticise SPT in this article, and previous ones. Point being, even with the spin, rhetoric and good publicity - we can see right through it all. People are not stupid, and whatever I say I can see you will disagree with me. All I will say is that I'm sick of SPT's inefficiencies, and this clear waste of tax payers money not being properly accounted for. Those contributors who also criticise SPT have clearly all made up their own minds, also. Thank goodness for freedom of speech, and what little democracy we have left. Graham I suggest you go away, and decide what you believe yourself - I've made up my mind.

PP. I do critisise the SPT for not providing a better service on the Subway. I critisise them for wasting money on tendered bus sevices that no one uses. I critisise them for not getting the ownership of the land at Partick sorted out before construction started. I am not a building expert. So how can I make up my mind on that.[bold]bold[/bold]

Well then Graham, you're preaching to the converted. Looks like theres nothing left to argue? - debate about. Just glad you also criticise SPT, as their faults, and mistakes are mounting, all costing us (the public purse) yet more ££'s. It is not about whether people state they are experts in the field - more that they are so passionate and angry about the topic that they come accross as, or are interpreted as being "experts." I'm sure nobody here has actually claimed to being an expert in the field. But, if you view Bill Forbes, Cambuslang [bold]www.subway2020[/bold] website it is most informative, and clearly shows how strongly he feels about this whole shenanigan. It is just sad that people don't do more to vent their spleen with their local councillors, MSP's, and political representatives. I do not believe they get payed to twiddle their fingers, and sit and drink endless cups of tea - coffee. Nor should anyone else. Lets give our politicians / councillors some real work to do, on our behalf.

Hello PP. Well there are things to debate about. The ongoing additional costs for instance. The Transport Minister is ultimately responsible to give answers irrespective if he/she were in power when this project started. The Gov of any shade or colour are the people that release public money for such projects. They cannot hide behind the mistakes if any of appointed quangos.It is up to the Gov to investigate any overspend![bold]bold[/bold]

I don’t know about that Graham, I asked Audit Scotland to investigate the SPT’s handling of capital projects and their reply was that I should basically ask the SPT?! I was telling them over a year ago that there was something really wrong about the Partick project and their disinterest was staggering. It appears that government would rather wait for something to happen (or not) then take action. I put that down to the civil servants, not the politicians, but the elected members (of all parties) should perhaps not just accept the first answer which is put their way. As I pointed out above the SPT were releasing statements that the project would still come in on budget when even someone with minimal knowledge about building would know that could not be the case. If there were to be any sort of inquiry, I suspect we would get the same sort of tepid response that the Holyrood Inquiry concluded – they blamed all the dead guys. In my experience jobs like this go badly wrong when there is either an inexperienced contractor unable to handle the work, or a naive client not able to manage the work. The usual solution for the former is to get a new builder. It is difficult to replace the client mid-job. [bold]www.subway2020.com[/bold]

Sorry Bill but the civil servants just give the answer that the politicians want to be given.[bold]bold[/bold]

Well Graham, I’m one of those who believe that the T.V. series “[bold]Yes, Minister[/bold] ” was actually a documentary rather than a comedy. Civil Servants have stock answers which can be peddled out whenever there is flak. Perhaps our politicians are too gullible when it comes to accepting the answer they are given. You will gather that I am an enthusiastic observer of the SPT and their work. Over the past three years they have used “[italic]inflation on steel and concrete prices[/italic] ” as their standard response when asked about price hikes on their various jobs. It appears that “[italic]ground conditions[/italic] ” will be the Partick excuse, but I’d be willing to wager that in reality there would be a number of different reasons for the price hike at Partick but perhaps the biggest contributor would be delays through lack of information/instruct ion from the client. The SPT have [bold]never[/bold] had a major job go well. In fact they were even wasting money trying to stop smoking in open bus shelters when the smoking ban was enforced! [bold]www.subway2020.com[/bold]

[quote][bold]People Power[/bold] wrote: Summed Up In one word for you : INCOMPETANCE![/quote] I'm having a wee chuckle at this point...

[quote][bold]Brad[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]People Power[/bold] wrote: Summed Up In one word for you : INCOMPETANCE![/quote] I'm having a wee chuckle at this point...[/quote] Ironically - I hadn't noted the misspelling - cheers for pointing it out! But in the wider picture wheres the issue there. As Graham points out the Transport Minister and Bill Forbes - the Civil Servants, both of which are to blame in their own way. Also as Bill Forbes points out: [quote]jobs like this go badly wrong when there is either an inexperienced contractor unable to handle the work, or a naive client not able to manage the work. The usual solution for the former is to get a new builder. It is difficult to replace the client mid-job.[/quote] For a second Bill, I thought it looked like you were on the side of SPT - making this kind of excuse for them, but maybe not. All I have left to say is whether there is an enquiry, or cover up - an assurance must be sought that NO MORE PUBLIC MONEY will be swallowed up by this overdue, over-budget project which in my view the finished product is not even worth the money spent. Having seen the projections of how it will look on completion - I have to say I am less than impressed with the finished article. The custard yellow colouration of it is abysmal, and it's modern frontage does little to mask the backwards attitudes of the SPT Management left running the show.

Bill,1:16am. Nice one about the smoking in bus shelters. However is it not the case that the SPT,(SPTE)lost responsibility for shelters several years ago when the Cooncil did a deal with that French Mob. Decaux or something.[bold]bold[/bold]

Graham, I think you'll find the company you are looking for is J.C. Decaux - there is also another sub-contractor (commutaports?)who owns - or is responsible for some shelters with the newer rolling displays of bus times. However like R.A.L.F. (Roads And Lighting Faults) I still believe that there needs to be more co-operation between SPT, J.C. Decaux, Commutaports? and First in order to ensure that the public can report any maintaintance issues, or breakages to a hotline more easily.

PP. Here is another true story of subway staff. You may recall the old changesaver tickets that were used on the subway and SPTE buses before deregulation. You paid for ten and got one free. Well the SPTE tried to introduce them again for the subway only after deregulation. The staff told them it would be to difficult for them count the little tokens! and wanted a pay rise to introduce them. The SPTE gave in to them and withdrew the plan. Spineless bunch. Screw the travelling public.[bold]bold[/bold]

Graham, There is so much more that SPT could be doing for the public in terms of improving the quality of the ticket structure, and journey savers. The only barriers they have are not within Partick Station, but their heads! Their so limited by their imaginations, and ability to think creatively that is is cringeworthy. I do feel for the staff who work for SPT as it is my belief that alot of them have been institutionalised, and brainwashed by the backwards policies, and mentalities of its management. All I can say is that unless the staff in the front line of SPT - at its Subway stations (etc) modernise their thinking, and become more upfront, and able to talk at a human level this improvement of Partick Station as a first stage will do little or nothing to improve peoples image of SPT despite the media hype we read.

Graham, Please see [bold]http://www.spt.co.uk /documents/rtp240306 _agenda11.pdf[/bold] This is the SPT’s own document, their hand, not mine. They tried to ban smoking in bus shelters – unaware of the rule that an enclosure had to have at least three sides. Even their pet newspaper, the E.T., carried a story about it. I didn't make it up; indeed you couldn't make it up! You could laugh if it was not so serious. [bold]www.subway2020.com[/bold]

Yes, yet more proof that SPT must be reformed, and brought into line. If they are ever to receive any further public money. Its top level of decision making must include more openly elected members/office bearers, who are reguarly rotated? Until it accepts that its current board of directors and management structures must be modified, and more flexible to change policies will never change, and the institutionalised ways of working will only be further engrained.